Hi everyone,

I'm from Italy and i beg your pardon because i can't write in german.
Well, i got a Gutzold v100 loco in blu color and it doesn't run or it runs and stops. So I've opened thier bogies and i've noticed a gear broken. Removing the broken parts and leaving this bogie with one axe (and gear) only the loco runs... sometime.

By searching the cause of it, i've noticed that if i remove the two axies with gears from the other bogie and i spin the driveshaft with one finger all the machinery spins fine (so i can gather that the only axe with a built gear in the other bogie spins fine) but when i put back the two axies in the first bogie and i repeat to spin the driveshaft using a finger something stops the machinery and i can hear a soft 'click' when if i force.

Can someone tell me how to solve?

Thank you

Bye

Hello pecetta,

Look at the gears with a magnifying glass.
The plastic is aging and then burst.
There are often only small cracks, nearly invisible.
The gears then run choppy or rotate freely.
So the best exchange all gears and wheels in the broken bogie.

I hope, I could help a little.

Kind Regards
Norbert
( Sorry for my horrible English)

@ Fliwatüt,

Danke Fliwatüt,

So for to solve it where i could find new gears, weels, axies and more?
Don't worry about your english because mine looks fine just because i love to complicate it...

Bye

Salve Pecetta,

(where are your green flashing eyes? )

As far as i know, Gützold at the moment is in bankruptcy (German: Insolvenz), but you still can order spare parts and locos. Maybe one of the forum members can help you with an address for your V100. Here is the official one: http://www.guetzold.de/index.php?article_id=10

I hope, you will find a solution. Another good address is APC-Adams: http://www.apc-miniaturmodell.de/index.php/ersatzteile

Maybe they will help there, too. Good luck!

Zitat von Pecetta im Beitrag #1

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Hi everyone,

By searching the cause of it, i've noticed that if i remove the two axies with gears from the other bogie and i spin the driveshaft with one finger all the machinery spins fine (so i can gather that the only axe with a built gear in the other bogie spins fine) but when i put back the two axies in the first bogie and i repeat to spin the driveshaft using a finger something stops the machinery and i can hear a soft 'click' when if i force.

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Zitat von Musseler im Beitrag #4

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Salve Pecetta,

(where are your green flashing eyes? )

As far as i know, Gützold at the moment is in bankruptcy (German: Insolvenz), but you still can order spare parts and locos. Maybe one of the forum members can help you with an address for your V100. Here is the official one: http://www.guetzold.de/index.php?article_id=10

I hope, you will find a solution. Another good address is APC-Adams: http://www.apc-miniaturmodell.de/index.php/ersatzteile

Maybe they will help there, too. Good luck!

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Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #5

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Zitat von Pecetta im Beitrag #1

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Hi everyone,

By searching the cause of it, i've noticed that if i remove the two axies with gears from the other bogie and i spin the driveshaft with one finger all the machinery spins fine (so i can gather that the only axe with a built gear in the other bogie spins fine) but when i put back the two axies in the first bogie and i repeat to spin the driveshaft using a finger something stops the machinery and i can hear a soft 'click' when if i force.

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Hi Pecetta,
indeed it sounds like you fell victim to the Guetzold Pinion Gear split. Not unlike Lima Nova, Guetzold specified a type of plastic which is neither resistant to certain oils or aging, the gear than splits and blocks. As Eric says this is not always visible or obvious.

However, the older V100s shouldnt have this problem. Here the two bearing blocks on each end of the boogie should contain tiny metal balls, a sort of improvised needle bearing. If those ar gone, or the block is generally worn so as that the bearing in effect fails, the alignment of the wormgearaxle is wrong, which will effect the sort of symtoms you are describing.

So to check for both=

Try first to eliminate if one particular wheelset is the culprit. Use all 4 wheelsets and put them into the boogie which you know works. If the wheelset is indeed the culprit, replace via Ebay, its a broken pinion gear on one axle. If that doesnt help .....

Then try and determine which wheel position is affected in the faulty boogie by just using one wheelset and spinn the mechanism with your hand. The bearing closest to the position where the wheelset blocks should be the culprit. (Hold it upside down too...if the wormaxle moves in a bearing it can move up and down) These are not easy things to buy. Never were. I dont live in Germany either, and even when Guetzold was alive the thought of sending spares to foreign shores exceeded their imagination and competence. And if you buy them on Ebay, like this http://www.ebay.de/itm/Piko-H0-BR-110-V-...=item3399d33686 (the little square things on the end of the Wormaxles) than chances are they are worn too, but that would be the only way to remedy the problem. Searchphrases are Lager , Hornblock (its not strickly speaking a Hornblock but thats what some people called them), Schneckenlager , V 100 and BR 110 (which it is more widely known under in East Germany). The older Models 118 and 120 had exactly the same Bearings, but those changed in the 90s, so be aware. Piko and Zeuke (BTTB) used similar bearings but those will not fit.

Frankly I think your best option would be to drill an oversize 2.5mm hole in some brass and file to fit. Fiddely but way better in the long run.

Kind regards and good luck
Fred

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@ herribert73,

I still have to open the loco, but before to do it I think is better to do some deductive reasoning basing my thought on your considerations.

Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #5

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Hi Pecetta,
indeed it sounds like you fell victim to the Guetzold Pinion Gear split. Not unlike Lima Nova, Guetzold specified a type of plastic which is neither resistant to certain oils or aging, the gear than splits and blocks.

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Zitat

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However, the older V100s shouldnt have this problem. Here the two bearing blocks on each end of the boogie should contain tiny metal balls, a sort of improvised needle bearing. If those ar gone, or the block is generally worn so as that the bearing in effect fails, the alignment of the wormgearaxle is wrong, which will effect the sort of symtoms you are describing.

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Looking at the photo in the ebay auction i see that my loco has the same bogie parts, same gears and so on. So i think the original gears mounted on the axies of that loco were in white color exactly like the gears shown there.
Those driveshafts are in black color: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Piko-H0-Br-110-V-...=item339ab92bda
And here there are the exact color and form of axial gears: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Piko-H0-Radsatz-B...=item339af3965a

A question now: if you look at the third photo of the auction (http://www.ebay.de/itm/Piko-H0-Radsatz-B...=item339af3965a) where thee axies are in vertical pose you can see that the side of every gear has a different form. So i thought this difference has a proper meaning and the question now is: how to put them in the bogie?
Also every gear moves by its axis, i think its because it must to find its own position by itself and the potbellied side has this form for not to use a washer... if this is correct the potbelled side have to be placed where the gear can touch the bogie side but...
But all of there are just my assumptions.

About the 'age' of my loco i have another question: is my loco of the same construction age of that? I don't know.
Also my loco doesn't have the gutzold firma (<-- should be a german word ) wroten on the lower shell usually located in between the two bogies and it has the v100-001 wroten on the body side. It comes from an ebay auction and I can't say if the body is the right one for the lower shell and if the bogies are the original and so on...
Anyway Iike it so much and i want to make it run fine again.

Danke

Bye

Hi Pecetta,
as to the establishing age and version of your Loco there is a nice listing at http://www.bahnwahn.de/pikodr110/Ubersicht/ubersicht.html even if all Versions can be found in the forum (the search function is unfortunately less than efficient but I think Martins excellent Bahnwahn site will do fine). Otherwise, send us some pics.

I think its very wise not to rush into opening the loco, its construction doesnt loan itself well to component tests, it just falls apart and has to be almost fully assembled to be tested.

The colours of the elements, the motor and the kardanshafts did indeed change over time, but the gears are all the same. And no, the exact position of the gear on the axle has no bearing on its serviceability, its not engineered to that kind of precision, likewise the position, orientation and order of assembly the axels is not critical.
I still think, as outlined above, that it is possible but unlikely, that your problem lies with the gear on the wheelset, its more likely the bearingblock at the end of the wormgear I suspect to be the culprit.
Edit just to illustrate http://www.bahnwahn.de/pikodr110/Sonstig...zettel_03-1.JPG Im talking about Parts 19 and 20.

The Guetzold gear split primarely but not exclusivly affects Locomotives produced after 1992, especially 119, 118, 120 and 250. These Versions have a Roco like interior, and its those problems wich predominate on the web. They posess thus no long wormgear as in the V100 and earlier Versions of the 120, 118 and the BR 52 Kondenstender. In those earlier Versions, Motorfailure and the of me suspected bearingfailure are much more common sources of discontent, indeed it seems easier to find a BR120 without a motor than one with. Anyway, these are soundly if a little crudely engineered machines, well worth repairing if possible.

I have to correct myself as well, the wormaxle is 2mm in diameter.

Kind regards
FRed

Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #9

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Hi Pecetta,
as to the establishing age and version of your Loco there is a nice listing at http://www.bahnwahn.de/pikodr110/Ubersicht/ubersicht.html ...

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Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #9

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Otherwise, send us some pics.

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Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #9

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I think its very wise not to rush into opening the loco, its construction doesnt loan itself well to component tests, it just falls apart and has to be almost fully assembled to be tested.

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Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #9

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The colours of the elements, the motor and the kardanshafts did indeed change over time, but the gears are all the same. And no, the exact position of the gear on the axle has no bearing on its serviceability, its not engineered to that precision.
I still think, as outlined above, that it is possible but unlikely, that your problem lies with the gear on the wheelset, its more likely the bearingblock at the end of the wormgear I suspect to be the culprit.

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Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #9

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The Guetzold gear split primarely but not exclusivly affects Locomotives produced after 1992, especially 119, 118, 120 and 250. These Versions have a Roco like interior, and its those problems wich predominate on the web. They posess thus no long wormgear as in the V100 and earlier Versions of the 120, 118 and the BR 52 Kondenstender. In those earlier Versions, Motorfailure and the of me suspected bearingfailure are much more common sources of discontent, indeed it seems easier to find a BR120 without a motor than one with. Anyway, these are soundly if a little crudely engineered machines, well worth repairing if possible.

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Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #9

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I have to correct myself as well, the wormaxle is 2mm in diameter.

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Hello again,
you can spell Guetzold anyway you like i think, my workcomputer is danish and ignores the Umlaut, and Im much too lazy to go chasing it.

Zitat von Pecetta im Beitrag #10

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Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #9

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Hi Pecetta,
as to the establishing age and version of your Loco there is a nice listing at http://www.bahnwahn.de/pikodr110/Ubersicht/ubersicht.html ...

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Ok, so if i undestand you fine here is a bearingblock with the wormgear mounted at the end... right?

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Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #11

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By the way, I do need some Riva help, i need some pantographs for a bakelit 626 and a tendershell for a Hiawatha, are there any adresses you know where I could take my request?

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Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #11

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You see Pancetta, the older the stuff, the better quality it was, any year closer to 89 the machines were worn and the quality suffered.

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Hi Pecetta,
thanks for the Link, i had that allready somewhere in the threads about these locomotives but now Im reminded and its a new Year and all that I may actually get around to fixing it. Prices for spares are always relative, thats not my main concern, its time.
How did your faultfinding mission progress?
Kind regards
Fred

@ herribert73 ,

I just opened the loco once again and searching everywhere around bogies and shell I didn't found any metallic little ball (or sphere)
Re-reading all your messages I just anderstand there are needed two (one for bogie) but exactly where should be placed?

Bye

Hi Pecetta,

a good many dont have them anymore, and it will work for a while, but then the axle sits effectivly in a soft plastic bearing, and thats no good.

Anyway, I meant these parts just to illustrate http://www.bahnwahn.de/pikodr110/Sonstig...zettel_03-1.JPG Parts 19 and 20.



They are the two tiny black square bits at each end of the Wormgear axle. They may need a bit of pursasion to come off, and then you should see the metal sphere or ball inside. Its tiny. Now if that is missing, two things happen, the axle is allowed longitudal movement under load, and as I said above the bearing is effectifly just the plastic. Both collude to even further ruin the bearing.

Kind regards
Fred

@ herribert73,

Ok, vielen danke! (I'm not sure if i wrote correctly 'many thanks' in german)

So, watching at your last link i see i need two spheres for each bogie.
I'll try to search for a solution...

Bye

Hi Pecetta,
Ballpointpen Points used to be suitable, but those are all different sizes now, but you can try. Another solution is to go for Ballraces (Searchterm Miniaturkugellager), another is as discribed to make bearings out of a bit of brass, with a broached 2mm Hole. Thing is, these spheres where there because of the useless quality of the original bearing blocks, longitudual movement of the axle is not in itself a problem and if you find a way to arrest and bear the axle at the correct hight it all should work smooth again.
Good Luck, keep us informed
regards
Fred


Kurze Zusammenfassung fuer unsere stillen Mitleser.
Pecettas V100 hat in einem Drehgestell das Problem dass das Getriebe manchmal blockiert. Ein Zahnrad auf einer Antriebsachse war zerstört und wurde entfernt. Der andere Radsatz funktioniert problemlos im anderen Drehgestell. Zwei mögliche Ursachen wurden bisher erörtert, das evtl ein Zahnrad auf einer Achse einen Guetzold gemacht hat, also gerissen ist, oder aber das zumindest ein Schneckenlager zuviel Spiel hat. Es hat sich bisher nicht gezeigt dass ein weiteres gerissenes Zahnrad die Ursache sein sollte, aber sehr wohl das in einem Drehgestell beide Kugeln in den Schneckenlagern fehlen. Nun wird nach Abhilfe gesucht. Bedenkt bitte das der Kollege in Italien sitzt, daher sind vor Ort Lösungen besser als windige Ersatzteilhändler die einem das Portofell ueber die Ohren ziehen (Eure Erfahrungen in allen Ehren, aber hier hört Ihr einfach mal auf mich, ich habs nämlich probiert). Ich hatte Kugelschreiber Kugeln als Ersatz vorgeschlagen, oder selberbauen. Hat noch einer von Euch konkrete Ideen?
Macht Euch nichts aus dem Babylonisch, notfalls uebersetze ich auch.
F

Zitat von herribert73 im Beitrag #17

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Hi Pecetta,
Ballpointpen Points used to be suitable, but those are all different sizes now, but you can try....
F

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Evening all,

....maybe points from cartridges of cartrige pens are suitable? Just a suggestion.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...enkonverter.JPG

Yes, sounds like the ticket, and yes make sure your wife isnt looking, its messy business. Way beyond my wifes comprehension too, bless her.
@Eric, sehr gute Idee, aber ich glaube die sind zu gross.
F

Servus,
Pecetta verkauft sehr viel bei ebay.
Gruß horst-dieter

Hallo,

Yesterday evening i finally found the time for to work again on my v 100 using metal balls and here is the sad report.

No progress and solution not found.
Metallic balls were 1 mm diamater and using one ball for each hole didn't give me a result and because i put grease in the hole (where the balls have to fit) now I can't take them out.
Before to use the grease and thinkg to put two balls on each hole i saw the in that way the drive shaft wan't able to fit its holes and so i've decided to use one for each hole.

In other words i saw that the drive shaft moves again and just by some tenths (for tenth i mean the centesimal part of 1 cm) and this little gap (the tenth) is the problem.

Now i'm thinking to use a different solution (a whasher or more) but actually i do not have suitable washers. Maybe I'll open some Lima G motor to catch its washers and test this solution.

There are no other ideas in my head actually.

Bye

Zitat von horst-dieter im Beitrag #21

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Servus,
Pecetta verkauft sehr viel bei ebay.
Gruß horst-dieter

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Hi Pecetta,

not good. I mean I missed only one sphere and it didnt work, if all of yours are missing its no wonder the wormgear is working laterally under load and eating the rest of the Transmission. You could try and shimmy up the Endblocks with strips of metall, or buy miniture ballraces, type 681(? let me check that) but I have to say, I have never done that, and as such its pure speculation. Let me think a little, and contact someone who definately knows.

Regards
fred

@ All,

Tonight i'm tired and tomorrow have to go to Modena (I live around Milano) so tomorrow i'll be tired again.

I think maybe in the week end i'll do some more test.

@ herribert73,

What about your Rivarossi most wanted parts?
Did you get some good new from the folk at Rivarossi Restore?

Bye